Because travel speed is one of the most important characteristics for haulers. Capacity, gank resilience and travel speed are basically it.

At what skill level is the 3 battleship mark met? It would be nice if level 4 of the new skill would enable 1.5m hangar capacity. Training up freighters to lvl 5 has been a real pita in the past, and since most lvl5 reqs usually get toned down to 4 later on it would be nice in this case also. EHP could be a bit higher; mobile missioners will be carrying at least 2 marauders in the bowhead, raising loot value well over 2B. With about 1B in gank ships needed this is way too profitable.

Alright, we're talking about it here and think there's probably no good reason not to raise the HP some. Where do you guys think it needs to be to make say, three t2 fit BS, inefficient to gank?

And you're right about afk travel vs active travel, switching to agility to support align time sounds good to me.

Says "we arenGÇÖt really worried about hitting anything outside of the high-sec application",
gives it 90% reduction in jump fatigue generation.

In other words, "We nerfed jump bridges but we feel bad so use this to move your ships with much less fatigue".
For reference 1.6 Mill m3 is 96 fitted harpies, and yes I used harpies for a specific reason.

Ask yourself why orcas have fallen out of favor for ship transport

So no jump drives? Why are you guys focusing only on high-sec? While carriers can be used to move stuff in low-sec, why not open this up to everyone to use. If someone wants to specialize in hauling prefitted ships, why not let them? Give them a jump drive and let us use these ships in low/null.

Sure there's choice in what to use slots for. For example, you could choose to align-fit and carry 3 ordinary T1 battleships and a few cruisers. Even with way less tank than an all-bulkhead fit, that cargo isn't worth a gank attempt.

Just because the people who want this ship the most want to carry around 3 pimp-fit pirate battleships, does not mean that the thing should be built to give them their every desire on a platter. It's not like you can't run incursions in a plain T1 BS if you wanted to.

I'm not sure what your definition of risk is here. You spend a billion ISK on a hi-sec freighter (assuming you buy the right buff mods etc). You put in near a billion worth of ISK of ships to freight around. And you get ganked by 10-15 cheap dessies in Uedama.

So who is doing all the risk and who isn't?

Sigh. Gankers - they are the biggest cry babies in Eve when they can't gank your 2 Billion ISK freighter for free in Hi-Sec. And they swear up and down that you're not taking enough risk

Yeah I'd like to see some gankers in Uedama take some real risk for a change - like spend a billion ISK to take down a billion ISK freighter.

Oh yeah - *crickets*. I thought so.

Let's be honest here. High sec tanking is extremely profitable. Your group brags constantly about it. Moving the EHP up where suicide ganking this ship with T2 fit battleships inside unprofitable is a good move.

I'm sure your group will turn that frown upside down and dry away the tears.

You're not making a lick of sense now, other than an irrational insistence you have to be right. Of course ISK makes a difference and determines the risk.

try making sense other than pulling whatever you can out of your butt

Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
It will only be used for cheap T1 stuff. And considering how cheap T1 stuff is used, there is little need for a ship capable of hauling them assembled in a large ammount.

As for small hulls, considering the gank threshold, a orca will pretty much always be better to haul T2+ ships.

Rise was using t1 rigs for his ehp check.

Who cares about time to enter warp with a mwd? If it can't cloak, those 8 secods are enough to be bumped out of alignment until the gank fleet travels from niarja to udeama or the other way around.

If you want that MWD to be useful, the ship needs a high slot for a cloak.

Here's an idea. Would it make sense to prevent cargo scanners from scanning this ship (same as the blockade runners). It would be pretty much hit or miss whether you get anything from killing it.

Of course te counter argument is that every one of these ships will be gank on site.

It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio

All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.

That was sarcasm :P

Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are
an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR.

If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips.

I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters.
And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca.

And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?

There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)

Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip.

Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.

I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...

1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?

If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd?

DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :)

It's as if Baltec and Dave Stark don't even want these to be used.

Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)

I want it to be the decision of the owner of the Bowhead. Overload it and take a chance of gank or fit sensibly and be a lot safer. You should have the option of fitting/filling badly and paying the price for greed.

Yeah, I am a carebear . . .

m

2.4 bil.

That said, a group of 20 people is just too big for hisec.
What about smaller (and more realistic) groups? Screwed?

To put that into context 3 mach hulls are only worth 1.8 bil.

A VERY large chunk of people running incursions, don't belong to an incursion corp, much less a corp of anything other than themselves. It's also not uncommon for you to logout for the day, and log in the next day and have the entire community already relocated to the next site. So how is it practical at this point to relocate if the entire ship is balanced around needing logistics support? Beg and plead with the incursion community to travel all the way back just to escort me and my Bowhead all the way out there again? Perhaps I should just give up on this ship providing any actual bennefit and ignore the fact that it exists altogether. Because we all love ships that aren't practical and as such get neglected.

It's nice to see that you've convinced yourself that despite being an obvious forum alt, There is NO possible way I could be in a corp and or have friends. You've just done wonders for your credibility ;)

So you make two trips rather than one. This isnt hard people.

Because this negates the entire purpose of this ship. This isn't hard people.

It's amazing what people will delude themselves into believing when it comes to making attempts to insult others.

NO ,Dave Stark what you just did is called a personnal attack and that is the usual tactic one use when short of arguments

I have no say in what you perceive as whining. But for me to respond to this question seriously would require that I agree with your opinion of it.

I will say it's not very mature to simply belittle your opponent simply because you're not capable or unwillingly to actually retort. If you're interested in debating the situation of the ship, I'll be right here waiting. Let me know when you're done beating your chest over the internet.

Another nice tentative to troll and to make the thread derail ....6 trips are indeed faster at 5 au/s or more than 2 trip at 1.37s do the math i'm pretty sure such a veteran as yourself as heard about warpspeed change and their effect on accelerations ....

You're suggesting a drastic behavioral shift of an entire community just to provide them with a mediocre solution when the changes you imposed benefit only the tiny population of gankers at the expense of convenience of a much larger group.

Ever heard of ASCENDANCY implants and or warp accelerators .Welcome to eve ....

Why won't we such ships maintain a 150 K ehp or higher
....+ clone jumpings for moving isn't really a bother for most pilots for only 1 slots change aka PDS or RC 2 and only for the most extreme of them assuming full skill full genolutions clone ...

The more you post, the more convinced I become that you're not very attuned to what incursion communities are actually like.

That just leaves me more baffled by most of what you've been posting.

If by easy you mean posting nonsense in an effort to confuse people, Yes. That's an easy thing to do. You're correct.

I'm not going to go back and quote most of the things you've posted pertaining to incursion communities as I value my time more than doing that work for you.

With the majority of what you say in regards to incursion communities drastically contrasting everything I've observed, The method with which you explain them is irrelevant as it's not my capacity to comprehend what you're saying that's the issue it's the content itself.

But let's be honest, You already know all of this, You we're just looking for a way to lash out at me.

yeah one trip if you have the skill to 5 >35 days training and even in that case he can barely fit 3 different pirate bs + one logi at lvl 4 you fit only 3 BS so be ready to do a second trip more than once.
You can turn it however you want moving one by one will still be faster.

And how's that strategy working out? Are any of the nerfs to highsec getting reduced? Or are new freighters getting additional EHP?

It is silly and shortsighted.

I'm not arguing against profitable ganking. I very much like the fact that this can be done. But CODE's unprofitable ganking is a self-fulfilling prophecy that actually works against their stated goals and profitable gankers.

Ganking empty freighters does not encourage 'responsible' transport behaviour. It sends the message that the value of your cargo doesn't actually matter because you will get ganked anyway. And EHP goes up to counter it.

Not the sharpest tools in the shed if they do actually care about highsec risk.

Mm mm the tears on this thread make me happy.

How?
You can keep that ship to enter warp until next downtime if you find a bored cruiser pilot.
You can kill it with cheap throw away destroyer fits.

Yes, you need manpower but, the pilot of the bowhead has no means to make a run for it.
There is literally nothing he can do.
Why not make it like Orca. Give it a high slot, give it a drone bay so he can at least do something.

I'm assuming you mean packaged?

If you have 40 people, why would you use tornados and not catalysts?
Have a bowhead (the irony) with fitted catalysts and have your people refit.

One cruiser will keep the bowhead away from warping while you send a few waves a cheap ships to kill it.

I've seen this argument before and I have no idea why people insist on it.

The problem with ganking is that they have all the advantages. They determine the time, the place, and what their thresholds are. They have the element of surprise and they can have over whelming force.

I know people hate real life analogies here, but I want you to image what life would be like if in every civilized country (US, All the EU nations, Japan, etc) that in order to transport goods via a high speed route like a highway you would have to get an escort to do so. Think about the economic burden that would be placed on just trying to move things. Keep in mind not I'm talking about low sec or null sec right now, which the Somali pirates would be a good comparison to make there. The problem with the mechanic as it exists now is that if people like gankers exist that continually preyed on business etc like they do in eve, they would be systematically hunted down and dealt with. The free flow of goods is vitally important to any economy, and frankly your argument just isn't practical to that end.

You can fit an entire harpy fleet in one.